General Mac OS X Discussion General Apple and Mac OS X Discussion

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CyG CyG is offline
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Default Snow Leopard Ethics - 08-29-2009, 05:41 AM

My second favorite aspect of this community (right after the awesome people who make our machines work) is the consensus we have to respect Apple's intellectual property. As Mac-lovers, we know it's our duty to support the software we enjoy.

We need to discuss how we will advise new members of our community that want to install OS X. Is our current policy of expecting the purchase of a retail disk sufficient? Is it reasonable to encourage the purchase of the box set, which includes software many Mini users do not want?

Certainly, Apple does not intend for the $29 dollar price to cover the cost of developing Snow Leopard but they have also not provided a middle ground, i.e. a non-upgrade DVD without iWork. Are you satisfied someone buying the minimal package is paying a fair rate for the software?

We also need to keep our suggestions reasonable. I expect that Mini users are universally price conscious. I see very few new users willingly paying for anything other than the most cost-effective product. I am particularly afraid that individuals will use our arguments as a rationalization for piracy. (Either "30 bucks is not enough to make a difference, so I might as well steal it" or "No way I'm paying an extra hundo just 'cuz some forum dude said it was the right thing to do. I'll skip paying.")

I most definitely do not have any answers and I doubt there is a single good solution but it's important to get this discussion out of the way and in order to have a more orderly and friendlier forum.


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mechdrew mechdrew is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 06:09 AM

I've been thinking about this as well ever since I read on TUAW about the software installation process for Snow Leopard yesterday. Basically, Apple left a real hole in the Installer allowing an install without a previous OS on the HDD, or even if there was an OS it didn't need to be Leopard, it could be Tiger. The EULA states that the user must install only on a Mac that has Leopard installed, but there again we violate the EULA in that we install to a non-Apple labeled machine. So much controversy....

That said, here is what sits well with me, but you can take this as my opinion, not the official stance of MyDellMini:

Most of us have already installed Mac OS X Leopard on our machines legitimately, so we only need an upgrade disc. That is the proper course. As for newcomers, they should have either a retail copy of both Leopard and the Snow Leopard Upgrade DVD, or else pay for the Mac Box Set by itself. If Apple ever decides to release a standalone Snow Leopard DVD that is not an upgrade version, that can also be an option.

The idea is to fully support Apple, despite their dislike for our installation tactics. Those that will pirate will pirate, those that will hack their way around OEM discs will continue to do so, and Snow Leopard will always be a matter of personal honor. If $30 is too much for them, so will $130, or whatever the price of legitimacy is. But we (the forum members) can at least support the agreement with Apple, with the obvious exception of the non-Apple labeled computer part. Just because some will be too lazy and/or ignorant to pay for the software doesn't mean we have to make an exception for them. Support the legitimate solution, it's the right thing to do.

Again, this is my personal opinion and not that of MyDellMini. I state this because there are a lot of people who seem to think I run the site. (You should see my inbox, both personal messages and e-mail!)


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CyG CyG is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 06:27 AM

As always, we see eye to eye on these issues, Drew. I want every new user to buy a box set but I doubt it will happen.

I am also not sure about recommending the purchase of a Leopard DVD. Apple won't sell you one and I suspect buying one from eBay or Amazon will not benefit Apple because retail stock has already been sold and will not be replenished. (Unless Apple sells software on consignment.) It sure will make the purchaser feel better but it doesn't really accomplish the original goal.


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mechdrew mechdrew is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyG View Post
I am also not sure about recommending the purchase of a Leopard DVD. Apple won't sell you one and I suspect buying one from eBay or Amazon will not benefit Apple because retail stock has already been sold and will not be replenished. It sure will make the purchaser feel better but it doesn't really accomplish the original goal.
True, very true. This is somewhat of a paradox, but again legit is better. Since we've already been suggesting eBay to users and Amazon has already paid for the licenses, they're simply reselling them, it seems decently rational to suggest purchasing a copy.

You're still right, though, it's going to be a hard sell for the newcomers.


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PacJack360 PacJack360 is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 05:48 PM

I think this $30 upgrade disc will actually lower the piracy rate. You can't beat the price really, its like my friends would preordered windows 7, they would have went the piracy route if the price wouldn't have been so low, so price has a lot to do with it, and you really can't beat $30 and your still supporting Apple in buying the upgrade disc, after all it maybe rather far-fetched but maybe Apple intended hackintosh users to go for the upgrade disc
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bmcclure937 bmcclure937 is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 06:10 PM

As long as people purchase a copy of Snow Leopard I see no problem with them using the disk. Obviously, it would be ideal if they already had a legitimate retail copy of Leopard as well... but expecting everyone to be completely ethical and only use the "upgrade disk" for upgrading from Leopard and not doing a fresh install is somewhat unrealistic.

People will either pay the $30 and support Apple or just decide to pirate Snow Leopard and totally blow off any morals and ethics what-so-ever. On top of that, any copy of Leopard being purchased at this point is not directly supporting Apple anyhow... since they will all be sold through third party retailers. So, if the argument for buying Leopard and the SL upgrade disk is to support Apple and to not take advantage of the "loop hole"... then it is not actually giving them any more $$.

And, as I have said before. Apple is a smart company. I am sure they know what their "upgrade disk" is capable of... if they wanted to be more restrictive about how the disk was used, they could have easily added in checks to make sure the user was actually upgrading from Leopard.


Overall though, I agree with the viewpoints of CyG and Mechdrew that are stated within this thread!


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jetkins jetkins is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 09:04 PM

To add some more info, I have just spent the last half hour examining the packaging and DVD of my Snow Leopard Upgrade Family Pack. The EULA that is displayed when you go to install, has three separate sections for Single Use, Family Pack, and Leopard Upgrade licenses, but nowhere is there anything that actually identifies this copy as either a full or upgrade version, save perhaps for a cryptic part number. The packaging carries the markings "MC224Z/A MAC OS X 10.6 FAMILY PACK", and that part number may tie back to a license type to those "in the know", but there's no way for Joe Average to know.

Furthermore, there are no identifying marks on the DVD. Anyone buying a used copy on eBay or Craigslist would have no way of knowing whether he was buying a full or upgrade version, especially if all he got was the DVD.

So I'm not sure how we can require newcomers to have a full retail version. What if someone bought the Box Set, then sold the bundled software on Craigslist since he had no need for them. He is now left with only a DVD, from which it is impossible to tell whether he paid $30 or $160. And I for one routinely throw away packaging and retain only the hardware and media. I too would have no way of proving what version I had paid for.


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CyG CyG is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 09:29 PM

That a good point, Jetkins, but the truth is that we can't require anything. It is pretty futile to recommend a higher-priced but otherwise identical product, though. It looks increasingly like the $29 option is going to be the preferred standard just out of practicality.


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underwhelmed underwhelmed is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 09:39 PM

I read several Mac related sites on a daily basis, and the news of being able to perform a clean install from the SL upgrade disc is already spread far and wide on most all of the sites.

To be truthful, it sort of makes me wish I had waited until now to set up my Mini 9. Saving $100 on the OS would have been nice, I could have splurged on a RunCore instead of a SuperTalent.

But ultimately I have no complaints, my mini is an awesome little machine, and i am sure Snow Leopard will be a great improvement.

Now, to bide my time for a new SL mini install process....


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mechdrew mechdrew is offline
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Default 08-29-2009, 10:34 PM

Here's where I stand for now: I can't tell whether someone owned Leopard or not, so I'm going to always assume that they do. If they ask about or tell me that they don't have the original Leopard, I won't refuse help but I will recommend buying the Box Set. (If not for anything else, the full retail SL, iLife and iWork will be nice for new users.) But I'm using the same tactic for Snow that I did for the original: no retail, no support.


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